Now, first, I'd like to say that I admire this woman and this family and I am not in anyway trying to downplay their accomplishments. In fact, I see many similarities in their homeschooling philosophy and in ours. We, obviously have not taken it to a newsworthy degree, but whenever my kids have had an interest in something we've allowed them to explore and study it. Sunshine just took her first workshop advanced knitting class and she was the only teen there. But we've also required a healthy amount of things that they might not have naturally gravitated towards like handwriting and phonics practice but always with the attitude that the curriculum was made for the child and that if it doesn't work for them, we try something new.
"If they're going to be working at my kitchen table,” Mona Lisa says with a smile, “why not earn college credit for what they're doing?"
My first thought when reading this article was skepticism. This article indicates that their college experience is distance learning college (maybe it isn't but that was the impression that I got from the kitchen table comment) which makes me wonder more about the quality of education in distance learning. I don't think even an above average 11 year old could have kept up with the education I remember from college.
Now someone pointed out that their children's homeschool education prepared them so well that their first two years at college were repeats of their high school year. That was not my experience at all. I went to a public high school and took mostly (not all) AP and honors classes. When I got to UD as a freshman, I had never read The Odyssey or The Iliad or Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. But The Professor who is finishing up his freshman year has (and he's read much more, too). So, I guess it depends on what your high school preparation was like. Now, would I say that he did a college level study of those works? No. But maybe I'm too hung up on what's college level, I don't know.
Someone also pointed out that a college education at a private Catholic college is just too expensive nowadays especially for a family with many children. That might be true. I know it costs a lot more now that it did when I graduated and I graduated with $14,000 in debt. But can you really put a value on things like finding my faith... and my husband? That's a tough question.
A community college is so much less expensive and so much more accessible to all... but that also includes registered sex offenders and people much older and more worldly than a sweet 18 year old homeschooled child. Did you know that most community colleges are the reentry point for people who have been incarcerated? It makes sense since most community colleges also offer post secondary continuing education (PCSE) to inmates. It's something to think about. Now, I don't believe in sheltering my children, in fact, if they aren't ready to handle the world by the time they have to go out into it, then I haven't really done my job, but it still gives me the heebie jeebies to think about who my child might be sitting next to in an English 101 class.
Back to this article... it makes it sound as though this phenomenon just happened naturally, but I just can't even begin to imagine how that happens. My brain suspects that there must have been some kind of pressure or encouragement from the parents. I'm not saying that was negative pressure mind you. I'm kind of tempted to purchase her e-book just to find out more about their philosophies but also the practicalities. Did her children only take the college entrance exams? Did they take the SAT or ACT? In order to do college credit classes during their middle school years, does that mean they did high school courses during their elementary years? Aren't there college prerequisites in most states for what is considered credit for high school and what isn't? Or did they basically count their children's college work as their high school work too. Truly. I am baffled as to how they accomplished this. Not because I want to imitate it, but because it sounds like they have somehow "worked the system" and I'd like to know what that looks like. And it might speak volumes as to the flaws in the current system. Are the first two years of college just a repeat of high school ? Does that mean that the high school years are unnecessary?
So, a lot of things that I'm thinking about, but not really any answers...
You will notice that I haven't even broached the issue of emotional maturity and all that brings with it because frankly, that is such a personal thing. I don't want to seem as though I am judging badly these parents and their decision to allow their children to go to college at such a young age. Everyone has to do what's right for their children and their family and there is no one right way to do it.
Now that I've brain dumped here with questions and concerns, tell me what you think... please!
I didn't read the article. Just a couple quick things to what you asked/said: much like homeschooling quality, public school quality, and private school quality can vary within each group as well as between them, the same can be said for college level education. Some classes I took at UNT were laughably easy compared to a few of my AP classes in high school. I don't have experience with community college classes personally, but as an adviser to students was told they were usually easier than university level. A lot would come down to instructor, much as it would in the lower levels of education.
ReplyDeleteOh, and as a tutor to student athletes in the last few years, I would say that overall I think expectations, at least in entry level college courses, are not very high these days. This is based on syllabi and actual graded work and my perspective.
ReplyDeleteThank you for taking the time to offer your opinions. I think as someone who is actually in contact with college students today, yours is a valuable perspective!
DeleteThis is a much better forum for discussing this piece. I'm glad you popped it out into a blog post, Charlotte.
ReplyDeleteMy first thought is that UD is an unusual school and the level of work required for undergrads is often on a par with what other schools consider graduate level work. I know just about everyone I knew in the English program at BC and everyone I've talked with an advanced English degree from other schools agrees that what I did as an undergrad would be fairly typical for graduate students. Though I wrote longer papers in my MA program, I didn't do anything as challenging as my Junior Poet project at BC. I've also had experience teaching at a state college and a private art college. And recently I've had quite a few discussions about college recently, especially with Erin of Bearing blog, whose background is in engineering, with degrees from a state school. Almost all the data agrees that what UD expected of me was much more advanced than what most college kids are expected to do.
So I'm thinking you're maybe coming at this with very different expectations than many people, including the parents. It's probably true that your Professor isn't going into those books in the depths that he would at UD, but I'm guessing he got as much if not more out of them than did most of the kids in the World Lit classes my colleagues taught at Salem State.
But so much of that varies from department to department and even instructor to instructor in the same school. Some of my kids at Salem State told me of a professor whose course consisted of him reading Power Point slides to them. They were not allowed to ask any questions and if they did they were met with scorn. Their textbook was the same Power Point slides printed off and bound. They said to me, why should I bother going to the class, I won't get anything more out of it than I would reading the book?
I think it stands to reason that as more and more people are going to college, colleges must be dumbing down the curriculum. After all people aren't getting any more intelligent, half the people are still below average. If so many people are getting college degrees these days it can no longer be a marker for exceptionalism. I hope I don't sound like a snob or sound too jaded and pessimistic. I think much of my attitude has been shaped by my variety of post-UD experiences.
I agree that the parents in the story must have encouraged the kids quite a bit, but I think that could very well have been quite positive encouragement rather than pressure. I'm thinking it could very well seem like the kind of encouragement I'm likely to give to my children. My first reaction was rather like yours, that while I found their story interesting, it certainly isn't what I'm looking for for my own children. And yet, considering how expensive college is these days, I've been spending a lot of time of late questioning how much sense it makes to get into massive debt for college, maybe it does make sense to get college credit for high school work. I think I would want to vet the programs very well. I'm still rather of the opinion that online programs are inferior to classroom experience, but I wonder if that's partly because I'm mentally comparing them to the UD classroom experience as opposed to that at the local high school or local community college or even a fairly good state school. Maybe for a given student finding a really good distance course is the best option.
The more I'm looking into it and talking to people, I think your observation is correct. UD was a very unique and much more accelerated kind of education. So then, if they are going to be expected to do graduate level coursework but still only end up with a BA from a liberal arts school, is it really worth it?
DeleteI guess the question is: worth it by what scale? For me going to UD and getting the education I got was an end in itself. I feel like I learned how to think and I had so many wonderful experiences, not the least of which was the Rome semester. I would dearly love for my kids to have that kind of experience, though I'm less sure about how much I'd be willing to let them pay, get into debt to have it. I know from experience that starting married life with college debt makes things so much harder. I suppose it's a question of whether the BA represents a certificate of accomplishment or a ticket to a good job or what.
DeleteThen again, I kind of wonder, can I give my kids a solid liberal arts base myself before they hit college age, as has been suggested? I don't know I have a hard time imagining replicating even a fraction of the UD experience at home. It's a lot to ponder for sure. And I don't envy you being so much closer than I am to the whole question of college.
I am so conflicted about this. And I have been for a while. I've spent many hours talking about it with my SIL. I value my UD education as beyond priceless because of my courses, the professors, and Rome but most of all because I discovered my faith and my vocation. But the cost now would be a hefty price to pay for a dating service. I know that my kids are getting a much more liberal arts education than I did in my public high school and they are getting a solid foundation in their faith. The biggest question that comes back to me that I can't decide is whether or not college is just a means to an end (a career) or is it something more than that? Philosophically, I have to say it's so much more but is that really true in today's world? I don't know I'm still working on it in my head. Also, what about the education of a young man who might someday have to support a family vs. the education of a young girl who might only have to support herself. I'm not saying that girls don't deserve quality educations. I'm saying, is it wise to saddle a young man with the kind of debt that a UD type school would rack up in exchange for a degree that he can't really use or a degree that will need more education to make practical. These are the thoughts swimming in my head. I just don't know.
DeleteI think the problem is college has become a totally new and different thing. Today most university education is a sort of placeholder for vocational training. At a few select schools such as UD it is something more like the classical university ideal. (And one might be able to carve out something like a UD education at some big name schools or even state schools if one tried to find the right courses and the right teachers.) I guess the problem there is the cost. We're currently in a bubble like the housing bubble. Frankly, I think like the house market it's bound to collapse. In the meantime the costs are ridiculously inflated. I think the debt issue is as much one for girls as boys. I think a girl needs to seriously discern where her vocation might take her. Most religious orders won't take postulants who have debt. And if she's going to be a stay at home mom-- hey you and I both found that calling-- then it might be very imprudent to have a huge college debt to try to pay off on just her husband's salary. I'm lucky that I didn't have any debt from UD thanks to scholarships and help from my parents. But I did have big loans from grad school. Had my parents not helped with those and had they not cosigned on our mortgage I'm not sure where we'd be now. Dom still has massive student loans and it's a big burden.
DeleteLike you I think girls and boys both deserve the best educations, but we also have to be practical and prudent and recognize the world we live in might not be the world that we would want our children to live in. We have to help them make wise choices. I don't know the answer, but at least I think I know some of the questions. I wish I could be more help. But at least I know where you're coming from.
Charlotte, my husband and I have been having the exact same conversation for years. While I think I got a good education at LC where I met him (and where he walked out with massive debt as well), I do not want any of my children to go there or to any of the colleges in that class (just sub ivy league). Nor do I want them to go Ivy League. My SIL was given a generous financial aid package to any IL school...which they then chipped away at each year...because who wants to transfer down? I also think most of these schools have values that differ from my family's: anti-religion, pro-big money (you go there to get the top-name degree to get the high paying job). In those cases, you are paying big bucks for a brand name and I'm not sure it's any better than any other degree from any other school.
DeleteHowever, I think the college experience at Catholic, Christian, or other niche schools is something worth considering. Between my husband's siblings and mine, those who are married met their spouse in college.
Sorry, my kindle said I had written enough!
DeleteOf the 3 who are not married, 2 are vocally unhappy and have been actively searching for years and years. If they were happy in their state it wouldn't affect me, but with that in mind, I do plan to advise my children to seek a spouse while going to school. I wouldn't feel comfortable advising that in just any environment and honestly feel that any non Christian school environment (whether the local CC or the fancy IL) is like playing toilette: you might win big or you might lose it all. I am also heavily influenced by my own poor choices as a young adult, and am eternally grateful that God dropped a good Catholic man into my lap because my life could have turned out very ugly otherwise. My children have been raised differently (better?) than I have and may not be as bad as I was, so they could easily "fish" in a secular pond and make a wise catch. But possibly, God granted me my experience so I could better advise my own children.
BTW, my friend's daughter is a sophomore at UD...oldest of 5...and the expense is hurting them, despite aid and scholarships. Right now, my boys are considering service academies which are free with a 4 or 5 year commitment. That certainly would help, and they'd have a job after graduation too. But they'd have to rely on their sisters to find them dates.
Oh and that is supposed to be "roulette " not toilette. There are times my kindle irks me beyond belief.
DeleteOh and that is supposed to be "roulette " not toilette. There are times my kindle irks me beyond belief.
DeleteI would think they would have done community college and high school at the same time...taking 4 years of community college math. Still, though, even if they took algebra or remedial math at a community college, at some point they had to progress to calculus. The brother in his senior year is a math major. Differential equations even at a community college has to be challenging. It does seem that they start off easy - online perhaps. But I cant tell if they remain that way.
ReplyDeleteI went to a competitive school, and I don't think any of my kids could handle any of the classes I took...not even English 101. Could my kids manage some college classes at a community college? Probably. I have considered putting my oldest in a foreign language there. But maybe when he's 16. But for the most part, I think I'd rather just give them a challenging education at home. And I do think a small Catholic school is worth the money to increase the chances of finding a good spouse and solidifying traditional values. You have good points about the usual people who attend community college.
Oh gosh, Charlotte. I don't know. I started out in an honors program at the local community college - coming off of 12 years of Catholic school. It was full of serious students, skewing perhaps a little older (and thus even more serious about their education and careers as opposed to goofball, hormonal teenagers). I was tremendously impressed by the adult students and they had only a positive influence on my study habits. While I was in a special program, the majority of my classes were taken with the general population and I don't remember classrooms full of criminals and sex offenders. That's a little off base.
ReplyDeleteAs I figure this all out, I am really trying to distance myself from my personal experience (which I know cannot be done completely) because times do change faster than we'd like to think. College tuition had increased astronomically as one example. I only made the comment about community colleges and registered offenders because it was something someone had mentioned in the FB discussion. While I'm sure your experience was a positive one, this lady said that a relative of hers had "several dangerous students in his classes" at community college.
DeleteI have been thinking about the article since I read it yesterday. I wondered:
ReplyDelete--How did she get her children to qualify? I know that here, there is one public university which allows brilliant children of that age to take courses. I can see more colleges willing to do that at ages 15 plus, but eleven and twelve would be a harder sell. The school is Faulkner University, a private Christian school in their hometown. Success of the first child probably paved the way for the others.
Once a student has the college degree, the doors are open anywhere else. I would consider a specialized degree for one of my kids if they could do the work (nursing, for example) and then springboard this into advanced training.
Mostly I was jealous of this family's success (isn't that awful?)
Meredith
Well, I broke down and bought their e-book. I'm reading it now. Apparently, their oldest two took the California High School Proficiency exam in order to use that to get into college. they did not have to take the SAT or anything like that. The regulations state that the student had to be a 15 OR a second semester sophomore. The oldest daughter took it at the age of 12 because her parents used the "second semester sophomore" loophole. Nobody questioned her daughter's age and the parent's certified that they considered her a second semester sophomore.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteCharlotte, you are right. I am sorry for the earlier thoughtless comment.
DeleteI appreciate you coming back. I'm sorry if I responded too harshly. Thank you for taking the time to comment at all.
DeleteNot to prolong this, but I believe you were justified. I think it's perfectly acceptable to disagree factually with a blogger, but, as in life, you don't comment on people's motives. And if you are tempted to do so, you move on. It's not an excuse, but let's just say I will never again post a comment on a Friday night after having had a couple glasses of wine... They seemed to have removed the filter that is supposed to prevent ill-conceived thoughts that pop into one's head from being animated and dumped onto the internet. Sorry.
DeleteAll of our children graduated from college early. Our oldest had her BA in Microbiology & Biochemistry at 19. Our middle child, a BA in Computer Science at 19. Our youngest got his Masters in Teaching English as a second laguage at 19. They all began college at young ages 15, 15 and 13 years old respectively. All went 4 year colleges, not community college. All took the SAT and ACT for admittance to college. All are extremely well adjusted adults and working in their fields. Admittedly, I would prefer them to be closer to home, especially the youngest who is now 23 and working at Keio University in Tokyo as a translator. He is fluent in Chinese and Japanese.
ReplyDeleteWe homeschooled part of the time and the other part of the time they went to private school at our church using the same curriculum we did. We never pushed our children but they enjoyed learning. All chose completely different careers. Would I do things differently if I had to do it again? Nope. They would have been bored. All were honor students in college, even the 13 year old. In fact, he was teaching at the college level at 17 while working on his Masters. My only regret is that their careers have taken them away from our town. :-)
Blessings,
Betsy
Http://www.betsy-thesimplelifeofaqueen.blogspot.com
Betsy, when you say they took the SAT and Act for admittance, did the college not require transcripts or GPA's? When you say that they did school at the private school, how did they graduate from there on an earlier track? Did they take courses that were all dual high school/college credit? Or did they take high school level courses when they were in elementary. This is what I'm not understanding. Texas is a very homeschooling friendly state but we still have graduation requirements. Maybe I'm focusing on those too much.
DeleteYes they also had transcripts showing their grade for their coursework. It was a "work at your own pace" curriculum so they weren't held back by other students. Some years they completed two years of curriculum in one school year. No college classes were taken at the private school, all were taken at the college. Yes, they met all high school graduation requirements!
DeleteFeel free to ask questions. I don't mind at all. :-)
Blessings,
Betsy
My first question would be what curriculum did you use? You said it was the same curriculum used at home and at the private school they attended. It doesn't sound like they did the dual credit route, but rather, completed their high school requirements early. Is that right? Also, did you have to request special permission to enroll them in college at their young ages? Did they live at home or on campus?
DeleteThank you for your willingness to share how your children were educated. I might have some more questions later but right now, I have to put a little one to bed. Boy, I wish I could accelerate her teething!
I'm sorry I didn't answer sooner. I haven't been online today until now. We used ACE or Acelerated Christian Academy curriculum. I believe it is located in Texas. No special permission was needed to enroll, just their transcripts, SAT & ACT tests. They did complete high school and took all college level classes at the 4 year college. We did have to meet with the admissions office with our then 13 year old just to verify we weren't planning to audit the classes with him! The University they attended is. 35 miles fromhome. All three lived at home while attending. They took the local bus (public transportation) to school. We could in no way afford for them to live on campus. We had at least 2 in college for many years, plus private school costs. We also felt they needed the gtounding of being home every night at their ages.
DeleteThanks for sharing the ebook info with us! I owed three times what you did when I graduated from Lafayette College with a BS in Civil Engineering. I could have owed nothing had I gone to a public school that offered me a full ride. While I do not want my children to start off their adulthood in debt, I do not believe that all degrees are alike. I also believe that there is more to a college education than a means to an end...a block to check before "real life" begins. But then I also think the best place for even the most brilliant teenager is at home, doing what he must do (first) and filling the rest of his time with diverse personal interests. Perhaps that includes community college classes. Perhaps that means writing a book or inventing a role playing game set in medieval Europe as my sons and nephew are doing. I doubt that a public college BS degree program would have permitted me a semester abroad with an engineering elective called "Gothic Cathedrals" including field trips. Community and public colleges and their usefulness ( my husband's masters is from a public university...mostly done online). Like traditional grade schools and high schools, the best choice is not going to be the same for everyone.
ReplyDeleteMichelle, my oldest would totally play that game! He wants to know if he can come join the design team.
DeleteIt's very preliminary right now, but I will propose your son as their Alpha tester when they themselves agree on a format!
ReplyDeletePlease allow me to shed some positive lights on community colleges and share my personal experiences.
ReplyDeleteMy husband and I not only attended Tarrant County College (TCC), I also worked at this wonderful institution for many years. I cannot speak to the current statistics but what I can tell you is that the student population was mixed and varied. I can also feel assured in telling you and everyone out there, that while yes, there were students who had been incarcerated before attending TCC, the vast majority of students were traditional students. Many of the students I met at TCC, no matter where they came from, were bright, hard working and looking to succeed. I felt safe. I never felt like I was in danger or felt the need to be afraid of my fellow classmates or fearful of walking in the parking lot.
Without TCC, my husband and I would have had a really difficult time paying for and attending college. I worked full time while taking classes part time at night and he participated in the Cornerstone Honors Program. Through Cornerstone, he received full tuition, fees and free books.
Not only was TCC a financial value but it really helped us transition from High School to a four year university. We both transferred to Texas Christian University and were VERY successful students. We were both on the Dean’s list and merit scholars. My husband is now an MD and I have a degree in business. I use my degree every day of my life while managing my family of four beautiful kiddos. (Side note: Whoever says stay at home moms waste their education was wrong!!!)
As to the difficulty of the classes, my hubby had it tough! Cornerstone is no walk in the park! The regular classes I was in varied by instructor. Some classes had me begging for mercy. Others I slept through. Let me reiterate, TCC helped us transition to the rear end kicking we would receive at TCU. We never had a “gimmie” class at TCU.
I would also like to say that going to a community college gave us opportunities for scholarships as transfer students. My hubby earned a Dean’s Scholarship that paid half of his tuition. I didn’t do badly either! Combined with our Financial Aid packets we were financially able to attend without graduating with a mountain of debt. Yes, there was debt just not overwhelming amounts of it.
I took the liberty of looking up the scholarship opportunities at UD. They offer very generous transfer scholarships including the Elite Transfer Scholarship (full tuition) and the Phi Theta Kappa Scholarship (half tuition). Among many others!!! Check out the link:http://www.udallas.edu/admissions/achievementbasedawards/elitescholarship.html
Was our experience at community college spiritually enriching… no. Of course not! We understood our relationship with Christ was our responsibility. Even though we did not go to Catholic colleges, we went to Mass everyday and adored Christ in the Blessed Sacrament every week at our own parish and at the College of St Thomas More (which is physically across the street from TCU).
I am not telling you to send your kids to a community college. I only want to shed a positive light on the rich resources and benefits of a community college. TCC was not a scary place. It was God’s way of helping us and providing a place for us to get an education. I would send my kids there in a heartbeat. I would especially take advantage of the High School Duel credit program!
With all of my love and best intentions,
PZ
I really do thank you for the very thorough comment on your experience! I've heard other people say that transferring in is a more gentle way of getting into the school you want to graduate from.
DeleteI want to know how they paid for all of those kids to take college courses. My oldest daughter is a home schooled senior, a National Merit scholar and was ready for Calculus at the end of her junior year in high school. Rather than teach it at home where she would get no college credit, we enrolled her in the local CC. There were zero scholarships available to her as a homeschooled student regardless of her outstanding ACT and SAT scores. She is dual-enrolled, but there were NO funds available to her (as there would be for a public school student in the same situation). She took Calc I and Comp I and is now enrolled in Calc II and Comp II. She has had no problems with her fellow classmates, and one of her profs is himself a homeschooling parent.
ReplyDeleteThis discussion is an interesting one! We are super newbies at all of this (our oldest is 2.5 years old, and our youngest is 6 months in-utero) so we don't have much of anything to say by way of experience. But, as we begin to think through our own family's homeschool philosophy (as we begin to gradually homeschool our oldest for preschool) I know that I and my husband find it super helpful to hear from people farther along in their journey!
ReplyDeleteI had two thoughts when I read this article. The first was, "Wow, this seems like it couldn't help but cut into the childhood experience, no matter what the mom says!" I was super ambitious as a high school student, so I get that from the child's perspective but as a mother I want to shelter my daughter (in a healthy sense) as long as she needs it. (Of course, throwing out there that my husband and I both got our BA and master's degrees from Notre Dame, so our experience of college was crazy intense!!). But I'm also thinking about this from a vocational perspective. I ended up discerning that I felt called to study theology at the tail end of my junior year of high school, and if I'd pursued college before then I would have been in a very different place discernment-wise! My husband ended up switching majors from physics to theology part way through college. Both of us, with our degrees in theology, would say that we have been drastically formed by our studies both in the sense of who it made us as people (especially in our understanding of the fullness and richness and beauty of our Catholic faith) but also in who it made us as thinkers and what opportunities it opened up to us practically (in terms of providing for our children in a monetary sense). So, our education was and is (as my husband is working on his doctrate now) worthwhile. But would we have been spiritually mature enough to appreciate how it formed us in our faith at a younger age? Probably not.
But....the other thought I have is, "Wow, it's great these kids won't be stuck in a pro-longed adolescence." That's another topic my husband and I (who married young and had our first child young and who have many friends who did the same) have been talking about alot lately...how to avoid the phenomenom of prolonged adolescence that we've seen in so many in our generation. At least these kids won't have that problem, as they've already taken steps to begin their life's work!
There's a lot to think about here, and right now I just have one thing to say. Any secular higher learning institute could have a mix of students who are not the kind of people I want my kid to meet, even fellow 18-year-olds. The world is filled with scary people and juvenile delinquents are some of them. I don't think community colleges are any worse than baccalaureate/doctorate university, in terms of people you might meet. My kids go to college at one of the largest state universities in the country. I wouldn't trust anyone on that campus because most kids today come from "the world" in a big way. My son lived with students the first year who were no better than prison inmates. Seriously.
ReplyDeleteMy first choice would be for my children to go to a Catholic university. When my oldest started at Ohio State, Ohio state tuition was $5500 per quarter. Any Catholic university in the state started at around $21,000. Thinking toward the future, we decided that in the long run, it would be better for him to accrue less debt and be able to marry and start a family sooner. Looking back I don't know if that was the right choice. Will we ever? I wish there were more choices. I wish there wasn't so much evil in the world. I wish, I wish.
My oldest started out in college with 20 hours of foreign language credit that he earned by testing into and doing well in one college German 104 class that he took in his senior year. He never had to take any foreign language classes, but he had to take all the math, history, sociology, English, etc. that had nothing to do with his degree because he is earning a liberal arts degree. And because of all the scheduling issues involved with getting a degree in a very popular field (environment) he is in his fifth year, so his debt will still be high, even though we thought had had a good head start.
I don't think there is a right way to "do it" for anyone. I have lost my beliefe in college degrees. I think they are good for some but not everyone, especially women who would like to stay at home with their children. Why rack up all that debt? I think any homeschooler will tell you you don't need a formal education to learn.
Ultimately I think children should be children and I think 12 is too young to be doing college work and communing with college students. "By 12, Seth was hanging out with students nearly twice his age." That statement makes me cringe, no matter who those students are, at any university. Let children be children, they grow up fast enough.
Ok, I guess I said more than one thing. ;-)
ReplyDeleteYes, you did and I love you for it!
DeleteLook, I'm not trying to say that community colleges are dens of prison gangs and moral corruption. I'm just saying that because of their nature, they are going to have a more widely diverse group of students. I don't have any statistics but common sense would dictate that the easier it is to "get in" the more diverse group of students will be found. I would expect to find more older students at a CC than I would at a state school but a state school would probably have more than a smaller private school. That doesn't mean we are ruling out CC as higher education possibilities. The one thing CC have going for them is a scheduling process that is more able to work with a work schedule thereby doubling their effectiveness at reducing student debt. But with this understanding, would I be comfortable sending my 12 year old there...um...no. But that's just me.
" I don't have any statistics but common sense would dictate that the easier it is to "get in" the more diverse group of students will be found"
ReplyDeleteDiverse yes. But not necessarily less desirable. Ohio State made it very difficult to get in just in the past ten years. Students who are being accepted at "Ivy League of the Midwest" schools are be turned away at Ohio State. Students are "smart" and involved in many activities, experienced at leadership, but no more desirable to know than community college students. In fact, maybe less. Not having a felony record doesn't make you a good guy. College students are just not who they were 25 years ago. I think the common denominator of being Catholic means a lot more now than it did then.
My husband and I both graduated from Thomas Aquinas College in CA. He went to a Lutheran college before which was more like a "regular" college. When he came to TAC he was blown away by how "normal and happy" most of the students were. At his previous college, his roommate was an alcoholic and another was a cross-dresser. He converted at TAC and his faith grew there, so for him his college experience was invaluable. His high school education was average. I went to a Catholic high school where I had some great teachers and some average ones and I was a driven student, so I felt well prepared for college. I think given the climate in the 80's, I might have drifted away from the Church if I had gone to a non-Catholic or "catholic" college.
ReplyDeleteWe want our children to have similar college experiences. I tend to hold my kids back grade level-wise. Our kids were older than the typical 18 when they left for their four-year colleges. Maybe I am overly cautious, but I wanted to make sure they were ready. We've seen too many homeschoolers living out the "missed" high school stuff in college, wasting their education time and parents' money. My older children took a few classes at a community college (40 miles away) first. They did learn, but were also surprised at how easy and uninspiring it mostly was. It was also an introduction to the alienation and loneliness other students felt in the modern world of broken families and immorality. They realized it was not a system they wanted to learn in. They were mature enough (and perhaps well-formed enough) to see the drawbacks and want more. Now, one of our kids is at TAC and another at Wyoming Catholic. They have grown so much - intellectually, spiritually, socially - that it was worth every penny. They both received great (almost unbelievable) financial aid and both of them will graduate with less than $15,000 debt). We did give them (I think) a solid Catholic liberal arts education, but we could only go so far given the limitations and busyness of family life. Being in a Catholic atmosphere with an intense focus on the life of the mind is something we can't duplicate at home. At TAC and WCC the kids made great, like- minded friends (and one, even a potential spouse) and are now part of a Catholic network and support group. I'm not out-ruling my other kids doing some college on-line (Fisher-More College in Fort Worth, for example, has some on-line classes), but I hope they would finish in a brick and mortar Catholic setting. I think a "virtual" experience is lacking in the human connection. My husband obtained his advanced degree through a college with a good reputation and an online program. He read some interesting material, but he did wish there had been more intellectual interaction with the teacher and other students. Sometimes he felt that the the online students were an afterthought to the professor's live students. But it was mostly about the getting the degree for him.
We have a very short list of colleges our kids can attend. That list was developed from our experience, friends' experiences and the information from the "Newmann Guide to Choosing a Catholic College." It's also made shorter by finances; for instance, Christendom College, while a great place, offers pretty mediocre financial aid, which would require heavy loans. The same with Benedictine College. Ultimately, for us college is first about developing "human person" and second, about a degree; although, I have seen that a man with a degree has more options open to him that will support a family well.
well, I didn't read the article but I read this post and all the responses. So, I gather the debate is about getting college credit while in high school...well, my experience is I went to a catholic high school that gave college level courses in 11 and 12th grade. Then, at the end of the year you took a test and if you passed then you got college credit. I passed out of 2 years of French, 2 years of English, 2 years of history and 2 years of chemistry. the only thing I failed was math. So, a lot of private schools do this so I don't have a problem at all. I don't think there is necessarily a catch or trick...it's doable.
ReplyDeleteI met my husband after college...although I think its fine to date during college not everyone finds their mate during that span...
I did not go to a community college but I really my stat don't have an issue with them. In fact, there were plenty of strange or criminal types at my school. I just stayed away from them :) I think crazy ppl are everywhere.
overall the debt associated with colleges now--It makes me question them. If there is some way around it I would go for it.
I read the article and found it interesting, but as you point out, it left more questions than answers. Discovering from your post that they attend a private Christian college changes the picture -- I'm sure admission standards are different there than at a public university. Their choice to have their children start college at very young ages might seem unusual, but perhaps because we're hung up on the word "college". Colleges across the country, from state to state, are different. What's considered college level work at one school, is remedial education at another. Perhaps, if we look at her children's "college" education as merely an extension of a rabbit trail. Her children obviously showed interests and the parents channeled their energy and efforts into pursuing those interests, to the point that the children are now in an environment (forget the word college) where experts (mentors might be a better way to look at it) can now guide them. And I'm sure genetics plays a part -- the parents may consider themselves "normal" -- but I'll bet they score higher on an IQ test than the average "normal" person.;) I recall reading a book by Charles Murray about myths of public education and one of them had to do with the notion (cultivated by our culture and economy) that in order to succeed you HAD to have a college degree. He felt that college (whose purpose had changed over the years) were better left for those pursuing careers that demanded a higher level of education. He thought more high school students would benefit more NOT by preparing them for college, but by preparing them for the skills that they showed an interest and talent in. He encouraged more vocational programs than college degrees.
ReplyDeleteAnyways .. I got off the track .. but my daughter is getting ready to go off to college next year. Some of the questions you're asking .. I've been mulling over for the past year and more intensely the past few months as we waited for her to decide where to go. Questions about debt came up, and ironically, it was a counselor at U-D who helped me swallow the debt concern a bit better. That $14,000 you paid for was for an education that helped you to think -- helped to form you as a person -- that has more value than any degree that helps you to get a career. Anyone school can offer a career degree -- how many can offer an EDUCATION??? A REAL education that leads to wisdom and truth??? (GOD!) That's what my hope is for my daughter's higher education. And our priest gave us great advice on discerning where to go. First and foremost, he said, the student should consider: is this a school where my faith will be nurtured? Faith comes first! (Seek first the kingdom of God....) Although we have spent our homeschooling years forming our children in their faith, he said it's critical that our children now "make the faith their own" -- in order to do that, they need to be surrounded with opportunities to live out the faith and express it -- a school that offers mass on site or a church nearby, faith-based campus groups, etc. There ought to be an extension of the community you've created at home -- otherwise they are entering a world completely different and my go into culture shock -- one which may lure them away from the faith! He said learning style should also play a part in their decision (our priest attended TAC for the first two years, left b/c he thought he wanted to go to med school, took time off to make sure he WASN'T being called to the priesthood, only to discover that he was!) Make sure the teaching/learning style is compatible with your child's. He also said consider vocation -- sending your daughter to a college where she'll increase her chances of finding a like-minded spouse is not a bad thing. It's not a guarantee, but again, as he said, it INCREASES the chances of finding a "better" spouse. My daughter will find somebody more compatible at U-D or Christendom or Benedictine than she would at the local community college -- that's just the reality of it. That's not knocking the people who attend our community college -- but since our homeschooling has been classically bent and Catholic faith oriented, she'll run into more people like that at those schools than the nearby college. When she graduates, she may have debt, but she'll also be (hopefully) wiser - better prepared to tackle ANY career, and most everything that life tosses her way b/c she's been formed to look at it in a different way -- not the way that would be taught at any secular university. Just some thoughts .. thanks for the discussion.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I love UD, which is my almat mater, I can't help but thinking the admissions counselor, well his job is to convince people that the debt is worth it. He's not really n objective source.
DeleteAnd this isn't a direct response to what you say but a sort of side not about paying for college and going into debt to do so. Yesterday we went to a Golden Jubilee Mass for our former pastor. Among the stories he told in his homily was that we he went to Boston College back in the 50s tuition was $500 a year! He was able to work in the summers to earn money to pay for school. The difference between that and the amount BC is now is not accountable by inflation. It is much, much, much, much greater. There is no way any student could pay their way through BC with a summer job.
Why? Why has there been so much inflation? I don't think my parent's generation truly grasps the very different economic paradigm that is college today. No matter how valuable we think a college education is, going into debt for it is not what our grandparent's and parent's generations did. Not like we are today.
Going to college no longer guarantees you a job and college loans unlike other debt cannot be dismissed in bankruptcy court. The debt your child incurs now will be with him for the rest of his life. Is it really prudent to start life in the hole? I keep coming back to this question. NO matter how much I value my education, which in some ways in priceless, I think the monetary price is too high. I just can't see myself counseling my children in good conscience to take on that kind of debt.
Melanie, there is most definitely an education bubble like the housing bubble and I am desperately praying that it pops sometime soon. I know it probably won't by the time The Professor heads to college but I'm hoping it might by the time some of my younger kids are ready to go. I haven't studied much on the economics behind the tuition inflation. Maybe someone can do that for me or point me in the right direction. I think it would be wise to learn how this happen. It might be a step in the right direction towards changing it.
DeleteJust like the housing bubble, once the federal government decided to subsidize student loans, push for a college degree for every single person out there regardless of prudence and desire, and make it unlawful to default on their loans, the cost of college started to skyrocket. Oh, and the quality declined as well (not for all, just in general). I don't see things changing without some serious pain across the board. Our plan is to learn as much as we can about scholarships and make applying for them a part-time job senior year. We also plan to have our kids apply to schools that compete for students so they will compete for ours with good offers (if dream school is UD, also apply to UD's rivals). Lastly we will stress taking fewer classes and working part-time, even if it means taking 5-6 years to get a degree. waiting until age 24 to get a degree debt-free is better than being 22 and owing $20k, $40k, $60k.
DeleteIt just makes me sad to see that the colleges like UD are in such denial about the bubble and still trying to sell parents on incurring huge debts. And they are always rather vague on exactly what your monthly payment on these loans is going to be. If parents had a realistic idea that their kid was going to be expected to pay $800 a month six months after they graduate, would they be so eager to sign?
DeleteI'd love to see a college find some way of breaking out of it, and returning to reasonable pricing. Though of course I have no idea how they would do that. It's probably silly and idealistic of me. And I'm sure UD is mainly worried about it's own survival. Still, it doesn't seem to be very in keeping with CAtholic principles of education.
There are so many things to consider here. You found your education worth the investment but I know people who have been so burdened by student loans that their lives are at a standstill. I have never been comfortable with debt and knew I wanted to be a stay at home mom. The investment wouldn't pay off for me so I took the budget approach, so to speak, and have no regrets. True, there were plenty of classes in the state school (not cc) which had a definitely anti-Catholic bias right there in the curriculum but if anything that strengthened my faith because I had to defend myself for the first time.
ReplyDeleteAs for finding like minded spouse worthy material - I found my husband at work. He wasn't the least bit religious but converted before we were married. He is now a faithful, Catholic husband and father. My sisters went to Catholic universities but neither found a spouse in college. So there's no guarantee there.
I'm not knocking your perspective, Charlotte, just providing a different one. I think we are both just as happy with how our lives have turned out, despite taking different paths. I have to go tend to the baby - looking forward to tomorrow!
Jennifer, I absolutely believe there are many different paths to achieving the goals of happiness and holiness in this life. And I am absolutely not saying that my kids will follow my path only. In fact, I'm struggling with the fact that the path I chose and value so highly could possibly end up being more expensive than when I chose it. Plus, it was beneficial to me in my situation coming from public high school with very little religious education. But that's not going to be my children's situation. And I appreciate your different perspective. If there is one thing that the online world has taught me is that different perspectives are an opportunity to learn and that's always a good thing.
DeleteI was just thinking that you have nothing to worry about with your children because of their formation. I think they'll be fine wherever.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like UD was an exceptional place to learn.
Hah hah! In my world, there is never "nothing to worry about"! :)
DeleteI hesitate to add anything, because all of these comments are great and you probably had no idea this discussion would get so long!
ReplyDeleteBut I would add my experience with community college. I maxed out my hours at my hometown CC (because my Dad's job provided free tuition) and then graduated from a mediocre state college because it was close to home and cheap. My grades and my test scores (and graduating early at age 20) got me into a top tier law school - but I still regret my lack of a "good" undergraduate education. I also married a man with as much law school debt as I had, and then I quit contributing to that debt after our first baby was placed in my arms. What would I do differently? My degree allows me a great deal of flexibility. Would I want my children to incur a similar debt? - oh no, no, no - so I understand what you are saying to a certain extent.
My oldest is 10, and she has a love for science that will need to be supplemented in a few years because it is beyond what I can give her. I want to find dual credit high school/college classes, hoping that living in the DFW area will afford us some good opportunities. But I don't know what it will be. Will I find a way to sit with her in class - will she let mom go with her to class? Will an online class be a good fit, or will she later regret not having a "real" undergrad education? And then I have her siblings behind her - what different needs will they have? I have more questions than answers and I am so glad you are on this. Just reading everyone's thoughts is a big help. Especially because I was not raised Catholic and my husband and I are forging our path alone. I'm embarrassed to say that I've never looked at UD. Need to do that.
Maybe you should ask Auntie Leila!
I didn't expect this thread to get this much response, but it's been very enlightening. I'm glad you did add your comment. Asking Auntie Leila might be a good idea.
DeleteAre there Catholic universities with strong math/science departments? Granted, we only looked at a few but they were not appealing to my daughter at all. Regarding challenges on campus--I think dorm life might be the biggest one. Our oldest will be going to a local university (so local she'll live at home for at least the first two years) and stay connected with the Catholic youth/young adult group she is involved with.
DeleteBenedictine College in Kansas has engineering...I assume they must offer at least math as well. But the lack of science degrees is certainly an issue for anybody who has that in mind, and it's one reason my son, who is considering engineering, is thinking about the Air Force Academy.
DeleteNotre Dame has an excellent math program. My little sister is a freshman there. The Catholic University of America (which is where I go) has good engineering.
DeleteI know that UD's math department is good and their science department too. I know that they used to be very small departments though, back when I was there, but I think they have been working on expanding them.
DeleteWhen we lived in Illinois the discussion was just about making sure you had the requirements to graduate HS and the requirements and transcripts for college. We moved to Indiana a year ago (South Bend to be precise) and the discussion is all about Ivy League. A topic which makes me as my children's educator very uncomfortable. While I believe I am giving my children the best possible education, as well as moral direction, I don't like the pressure of Ivy League (especially Notre Dame who is not extremely friendly to homeschoolers.)
ReplyDeleteMy parents paid for my college education. I went to two state schools due to a change in major. I still loved my college experience. It wasn't perfect but it was still one of the best times of my life especially spiritually. For me, the Newman Centers made all the difference. God had His hand on me every step of the way.
My husband had to pay for his education. He messed around in his early years at an Illinois Catholic College and was asked to reconsider his academic future. He ended up doing Youth Minister for many years and paid for the first year of college for many years. When we got married he left ministry because of the extremely small salary and worked his way up in the Building Supply Industry. His first boss had no appreciation for a college degree. But before the birth of our first child he graduated from a Christian College in an accelerate program for adult learners. That was expensive but with the both of us still working and a huge number of CLEP tests he graduated with no debit.
I have mixed feelings about my children to attend college early. I don't see that really happening where we currently live. I loved my college experience because I was a young adult out on my own for the first time. For me it was a rite of passage. I also don't believe we could afford it. Hence, one of the reasons we homeschool. My children will have to pay for their education. As their parent I will help them to go to whatever school they choose. My one stipulation is a good Newman Center. My plan is to just ask God for his guidance in their lives. I can look back and see God guide both my husband and me down very different paths and yet here we are today. We are both happy with where he led us.
On a side note you do have to be careful with community college credit. Some schools will not accept any incoming credits. Notre Dame is one of these schools. It is a growing trend to have students complete all classes at the destination school. Great discussion!
One note about Ivy League schools. Harvard is the one Ivy that is a great financial deal. Though the tuition is huge, Harvard also has a gigantic endowment and has a true sliding scale for tuition. Kids from lower and middle incomes don't pay much at all. It's really worth looking into if your kid has the kind of transcript that might be able to get him in.
DeleteThat is true and I've heard it from some friends who's daughter is in college now. You can't just expect a school to accept transfer credits. You almost have to get it in writing before you even take the classes.
Delete